A Thought for the Genesis Team

[Jezella]

You will see my user name and be aware that I am not a happy bunny. My grip is that the documentation for this extremely fine product is less than perfect. I will admit that documentation exists but, it is more directed at the not so novice user.

I have been on http://designsbynickthegeek.com. We all know that Nick helps a great deal on this forum where I urge anyone having problem with understanding the ins and outs of this absolutely wonderful piece of software to visit Nicks site.

Without doubt I feel that Genesis is better than Thesis in all but one respect. Documentation. I implore that the StudioPress team take note of my comments. It may appear from some of my previous post (now deleted) that I'm hard work. I can assure you that this is not the case. What I and any other person expects from any service/software, call it what you like, is some kind of documentation that is understood by the less experience user.

StudioPress, I'm telling you that you have something incredible here. I mean that but, please, please please remember at all times you have competition. Thesis. I would go with Thesis but I do honestly think that given time and me being able to master Genesis I will be better off. Nick tells me that documentation improvements are on the way.

So, what's my message here. StudioPress, get your act together - the product is only as good as the supporting documentation. Novice users - do visit Nick's site and hope that StudioPress gets their act together before you pull all your hair out.

Form admin. Please do not delete this.

[hillers54]

Hi Jezella
Agree with you that good documentation is a must and having bought the Pro package I have been reading as much as I can to prepare for my first project.

The information in the forum is very good and as you point out, Nick is running a fantastic series on Genesis over on his blog.

I've just got my first project where I will use the Genesis framework and Enterprise child theme.
I'm going to stick with the default layout for this project but hope to be able at some stage to start getting into changing layouts.

I sense from the new layout of the Studiopress site, the new themes and the new blog that Studiopress are ready to move Genesis forward in a big way.
As part of that moving forward I hope that the documentation will partly be aimed at the non coders amongst the community.

That is a long winded way of saying... well done on your comment Jezella.

BTW - forget about Thesis, you made the right choice with Genesis.
I'm beginning to see Genesis sites all over the place.
I visited the CommentLuv site today... and it's a Genesis theme.

[GaryJ]

Hi Jezella,

My usual disclaimer to start - I don't work for StudioPress, so my comments are unofficial in that respect, but I do want to help you resolve this issue on their behalf.

My grip is that the documentation for this extremely fine product is less than perfect. I will admit that documentation exists but, it is more directed at the not so novice user.

Just so we're clear, can you clarify which documentation you're referring to?

As with anything technologically creative, there's always going to be a bit of learning to do; there's no getting around the fact that some basic skills to being able to copy and paste code into theme files and upload them to a site is a requirement to enact customisations. If someone can't, or doesn't want to learn how to get started, then there is a list of Theme Customizers at the top of this page.

I have been on http://designsbynickthegeek.com. We all know that Nick helps a great deal on this forum where I urge anyone having problem with understanding the ins and outs of this absolutely wonderful piece of software to visit Nicks site.

I'm not sure if you're contradicting yourself here. Sure, Nick's site is filled with some useful information, but having seen a few of the recent articles where he looks more in-depth at functions with Genesis itself, I'd say that this is precisely the stuff that would *not* be helpful to the novice user that you say we should be targeting.

For a developer, knowing he can pull up all image sizes with genesis_get_image_sizes(), or unregister layouts with genesis_unregister_layouts() (see how these functions document themselves by their name?) might be of interest, but it's well over the top of the novice who just wants to change the style of the read more link, say. For non-novice developers, they can read and understand the code directly and draw their own interpretations of how everything works, just as Nick did to write the articles.

Speaking of which, I've been looking to improve that area (inline documentation) such that the package could be parsed by phpDocumentor or Docblox to extract out the API into external documentation. I've submitted (and had committed) several patches to Genesis which does this, and there's another couple of pick patches to be committed, with one directory of files left to be addressed with patches. In the same vein, we've been looking to pull Genesis up to using the WordPress Code Standards - while not documentation directly, it does make working with Genesis easier if there's a code style consistency with WordPress and related plugins.

With the Trac for Genesis there are at least three tickets that look to make use of the contectual help facility with WP (the Help tab in the top right corner), as this would be an ideal place to include more information that novice users might need. You and I most likely know what changing a certain setting will do, but providing an expanded explanation within the contextual help (or better, linking through to a tutorial) on top of the small description documentation within most meta boxes would be useful in my opinion.

As for the tutorials, this is where I think the bulk of the novice users you think we should be addressing will be most comfortable - see the Developers link at the top of this page. There is currently 119 published articles, with another 10 pending review, and 37 in various stages of being drafted. The code snippets within each article are (or at least should) be written to code standards, and contain inline documentation. Some of the tutorials are little more than "If you want X, then copy and paste this", but others, are less about code syntax and more about explaining *why* something is like it is. Dev.SP is not targeted at "just novices", or "just developers", and you'll find articles aimed at a range of abilities there - as such, you may find some that are below someone's level, while others (which you might not have needed yet, so haven't read or taken notice of) are above their level, which in turn gives a distorted view about the documentation and guidance available.

Finally, we have the support boards themselves - available both for reactively searching and for pro-actively asking new questions. With 332,000+ posts over 63,000+ threads, that's more potential documentation than anyone can manage. Having contributed over 1550 posts to the Thesis boards, and ~2000 posts here, I'm happy to claim that Genesis does this better - threads are limited to one issue per thread, threads are closed when they are dealt with so they don't get polluted by other posters at a later date, and you'll actually StudioPress developers regularly answering posts, unlike at Thesis (at least when I was active there). While this is more the superset of documentation - support - it is yet another means of a user - novice or otherwise - of finding the information they need, which is also the purpose of documentation.

It's widely acknowledged that StudioPress do pretty well on the documentation / support front compared to others. I'm not saying that the StudioPress-related documentation resources (and that includes the FAQs) are perfect, but I think it's unfair to say that they need to "get their act together" - unless you can provide specific examples that I've not covered?

[Jezella]

On reading your reply Robert I register a great deal of passion for the product where you defend it well. I note also your 2000 posts so it might be considered that you have got to grips well with what we are dealing with.

I complained about documentation so the question becomes what do I need documentation for? Before I answer that, let me point out that if I am looking for documentation that would suggest that I am prepared to learn and am willing to make an effort without everything being on a plate. So, back to documentation and what I need. I’ll step through this as though I have just started with Genesis if not a bit before. I say before as this is where the problem really starts and I shall use myself as an example where it must be borne in mind that not everyone is proficient in html, css and the like.

I have Wordpress installed working fine and now I’m eager to develop my website. I want my name at the top and so research a fabulous amount of information on the Wordpress site where I start to learn the ins and outs of how Wordpress works. Soon I’m thinking that I want more than the 2010 theme and initially go for the freebees, all very closely related to Wordpress itself. I start to understand about child themes and have a little play and all is working well. All the time I’m reading, reading, reading on the internet and I’m hearing great things about Thesis and Genesis so I’m hooked and opt for Genesis. I pay my money down load and install and all works well. I tinker with the admin interface and create test posts and I’m real happy. Next I want my name and logo at the top so in effect I’m becoming a developer. No problem, I understand to some degree the ins and outs of WORDPRESS. I do the right thing and lookup under the developers section of StudioPress and discover hooks! What are hooks – I’m not fishing. This is my first confusion. Here from my point of view, the documentation is poor.

At this point it becomes a little more difficult for me to NOW explain my exact feelings as I NOW understand what hooks are. If you compare this http://dev.studiopress.com/introduction-hooks produced by StudioPress and the outstanding efforts of Nick as here http://designsbynickthegeek.com/tuto...-the-framework you can see a huge difference.

I think that one of the biggest problems is that when one opens a genesis file they see almost nothing. The reason for this needs to be explained as in how Nick has done. It is pointless having a documentation system that fails to take the reader from the basic to that of the more advanced. It should be done step by step in a clear and concise way and it should be done without reference to more advanced topics. I will admit that my coding knowledge is not great but I should not find myself referring to the Thesis documentation to try and gain an understanding of Genesis.

The first reply to this post by hiller54. Does this not tell you something. I almost feel that I am in battle with Genesis/StudioPress. This is not the case, the product is fantastic, the price is fair and the licence is good and to my mind and especially considering that it is a newer product, given time could potentially knock the socks off Thesis.

The time I am spending writing this post is nothing more than my effort to improve Genesis and hopefully assist other not so knowledgeable users.

[GaryJ]

Originally Posted by Jezella

On reading your reply Robert I register a great deal of passion for the product where you defend it well. I note also your 2000 posts so it might be considered that you have got to grips well with what we are dealing with.

I have no idea who Robert is, but yes, I have a passion for the product, but I'm usually one of the first to should loudly and aggressively if something is amiss with Genesis (there have been 158 tickets on Trac, I've started 110 of them), so its not a case of straight defence, but an explanation into how I think SP covers most bases of documentation and support.

It's good that you're willing to read around the subject, and want to learn how to do thinks yourself.

Originally Posted by Jezella

Next I want my name and logo at the top so in effect I’m becoming a developer.

Certainly a lot of the newer themes make use of the native WP function of custom header (under the Appearance menu), as does Genesis itself - I'd say this is site administration, rather than development (which I tend to see as working directly with files and code).

Originally Posted by Jezella

I do the right thing and lookup under the developers section of StudioPress and discover hooks! What are hooks – I’m not fishing. This is my first confusion. Here from my point of view, the documentation is poor.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Hooks for actions and filters are something inherent to WordPress core, all themes, and all plugins - it's not Genesis specific. As such, SP covers the basics on the introduction to hooks page, and links through to the Codex Plugin API page that explains it in more detail - there's no point in duplicating efforts. SP should be focusing on documenting SP-related features, while guiding users to other resources for wider WP concepts. This is what it does.

A Google search for 'wordpress hooks' would also bring up the Plugin API page, and slightly lower down, SP's own Nathan Rice's personal article on it.

It may be that the concept is a difficult one to grasp for some people, especially non-coders, but then it's also likely that they don't need to fully understand it - the novices we talked about simply need to copy and paste code. Those who do want to be able to write code customisations from scratch will do exactly what you did (look on Dev.SP, look on other sites including the Codex) and read up on the subject. So, the documentation has guided you to what you want. What SP *does* do, is provide a Hooks Reference page (to be honest, it's slightly out of date as a few new action hooks have been added since, but there is a Trac ticket to fix this) for those bits that *are* specific to the Genesis Framework.

Originally Posted by Jezella

If you compare this http://dev.studiopress.com/introduction-hooks produced by StudioPress and the outstanding efforts of Nick as here http://designsbynickthegeek.com/tuto...-the-framework you can see a huge difference.

Again, with all respect to Nick and his site, the novice users who you think are lacking documentation for their level would be scared witless by the copy and paste of the framework.php file in there - that file is never needed for customisations. You'll also note that Nick's article links back to the SP resources, since everything that's needed is covered in SP documentation already.

Originally Posted by Jezella

I think that one of the biggest problems is that when one opens a genesis file they see almost nothing.

Novice users should only be opening the style.css and functions.php files, and they certainly won't be empty. They shouldn't ever need to open other Genesis files; if they *do*, then they aren't novices, and will likely have sufficient coding ability to be able to work out what's what anyway.

Originally Posted by Jezella

I should not find myself referring to the Thesis documentation to try and gain an understanding of Genesis.

Can you give an example of where Thesis documentation covers Genesis-specific aspects (not WP or PHP knowledge) better than StudioPress documentation?

Originally Posted by Jezella

The first reply to this post by hiller54. Does this not tell you something.

No, it doesn't. Should it?

Originally Posted by Jezella

I almost feel that I am in battle with Genesis/StudioPress. This is not the case, the product is fantastic, the price is fair and the licence is good and to my mind and especially considering that it is a newer product, given time could potentially knock the socks off Thesis.

When I moved from the Thesis community to the Genesis community and their products, my overall summary was (and always has been) that Genesis works with WP, whereas Thesis works against it - take the look of the settings panels for instance, or that until Thesis 1.8 you couldn't use Thesis as a parent/child set up (something that's been possible with Genesis since ~1.1/1.2).
Many in the wider WP community already believe that Genesis is better than Thesis (and it is, on so many aspects), and community support can be snapshotted by looking at the recent WP Candy Theme Madness results. There's a reason that so many (like you, like me) moved from Thesis to Genesis, including former DIYThemes partner Brian Clark (aka Copyblogger). When the boss of a product leaves that product in favour of a competitor, you know things are bad.

[hillers54]

Hi Gary
Glad you explained that the tutorials over on Nick's site are not aimed at beginners, I was thinking that perhaps it was just me!

I'm new to Genesis but I've been all over the forum and read what I can and I've got to the point where I'm beginning to know what I don't understand about Genesis.

I know some html and CSS and I understand that a general Wordpress theme is made up of header.php, sidebar.php etc.
Genesis has all these elements plus the files associated with the Child theme you are using.

For instance the Enterprise theme has a home.php and a functions.php.

As I understand it, the home.php will become my home page and if I want to make changes I use Hooks in the functions.php.
I never touch the Genesis files.

If I'm right in what I've said about how Genesis / child themes work, tutorials on the interplay of hooks with the functions.php file and which areas of the theme thy effect would be very useful.

Cheers Gary

[anitac]

I just have to chime in here and give just a little bit of my thoughts. I've been using Wordpress for 6 year now. And with all the theme developers I have come across, in both free and premium, StudioPress offers the BEST SUPPORT area. I have even purchased from RocketTheme's and I will NEVER, EVER, EVER buy another theme from them. Why? Because their support is absolutely lousey and once your plan has ended, they DELETE all of the dialogue you had when you were a member.

The documentation on here has been absolutely wonderful, and it get's even better over time. I especially enjoy the videos and the lady who does that voice over training is very calm and detailed. And when a member of SP isn't available, other users of the themes help each other. That is NOT the case on the other developer sites. Even on Theme Forest.. you cannot help another member with an issue. Only the developer can help.

So, in comparison to about 15 other top designers that I found on Wordpress.org's commercial page and have used their themes over time and needed help - StudioPress has them all beat. Period.

Okay, I am done now.

[GaryJ]

@hillers54 - yes, everything you said is correct :-) (With the added bit that if you have a home.php, and you want to make changes *to just the home page*, you can drop it into home.php, instead of functions.php and then having to wrap it in a conditional such as is_home().

@anitac - that video "lady" is Rebecca :-)

[anitac]

Thanks Gary! I like Rebecca doing videos!

[EllenS]

I must agree with Jezella...

I represent the average user. I came from years of using Dreamweaver and while I would love to be able to convert over strictly to WP via StudioPress, I find myself spending endless hours going back and forth between forum posts and the like just trying to figure out simple tasks.

I do NOT want to have to hire "experts" to help me... I paid for the Pro package and would expect just some basic tutorials all in one place. If they are there, please point them out... I seem to see a smattering here and a smattering there.

For example, I began using the new(ish) theme "Midnight". There is not even a tutorial listed under the Childthemes tutorial link...and when I did find what was available, it was lacking at best.

Videos that take the average user like me from step#1 to #2 to #3 would be ideal.

Yes StudioPress is great for many, but it would be better if you spent more time teaching your average user how to use it rather than just pumping out more themes...

[Atilla]

With no disrespect to the OP or any others in this thread ...

The hardest thing for me to get my head around when I first got into Studiopress was image rich pages, and/or categories with posts and content must be created FIRST before one can even view the "home" page as it appears in the demo theme areas.

Once I understood this, I found all the tutorials or "documentation" very easily because I knew exactly what I was looking for, be it dynamic content gallery config., featured page/post widget use ... it's all here and very well laid out IMO.

I also realized my basic understanding of WP in general was very weak,(just look at some of my earlier posts) however, even when it wasn't a theme related issue, but a basic WP function I failed to grasp, the support here always went above and beyond!

Just create some posts/pages, add some images, you can always delete them later after your home page is set up and you can see what you have created. You will get a feeling of empowerment when it all comes together.

My $79 investment in my first theme wouldn't have gotten me very far "hourly" wise talking to the caliber of professional designers and coders here on this forum whom are waiting to help you, and this in itself has been well worth the price of admission, and I thank each and every one of them for sharing their time and amazing talents with me and making Studiopress what it is.

Not to mention other members whom have taken their time to lend a hand or share ideas.

I have found you will not be belittled or made fun of here, so just ask and you will receive the help you need.

[447]

Thesis is outdated vaporware

If Genesis was an independent platform like Wordpress I would expect a great deal of documentation. But it isn't. It is a framework on top of Wordpress. To know Genesis one must take time to know Wordpress. That being said, there is a ridiculous amount of documentation within the thousands of threads already questioned and answered in this forum.

I started out with no experience in web development this past December. Through the forum support / tutorials of StudioPress and the novice-to-expert documentation on Wordpress.org I've come a long long way. Everything I've needed to know, from ground zero to the present, has either been documented in old threads, answered in my new threads, or found at Wordpress.org

With so many other platforms offering click and drag type builds ...

[AffordYourPassions]

I am what would be considered a "novice" user. I bought Genesis and my first theme the first week in September - I've been here about 6 weeks; prior to buying Genesis, I knew *nothing* about CSS; I had a small amount of experience with HTML (from being on blogger), but I had no trouble with setting up my site with the tutorial in the theme forum, and by asking a few questions here on the board. I'm thrilled with the product, and happy with the support I've received here on the forum.

I'm still no expert, but I've become more comfortable with the product in the past 6 weeks that I now assist here in the forum to answer questions where I know I can help.

[happy2bnmarketing]

Yes I found the tutorials lacking what I was looking for and these forums hard to navigate and find the most helpful stuff. More sticky posts with common questions/fixes would be awesome

[ngb222]

I have never found a better forum and product support then StudioPress. I hate ticket systems and I use almost all of the SP themes and 90% of the time I never have to even leave a comment because I find the answer in this forum. I will be so upset if you go to a ticket system. Also now I have bought almost all the community themes and have clients usign them, and today I went to buy antohter one and I see that section is gone? ( Update I just found the link on the sidebar of the theme page) whew.
What happened and also where can I go find the theme now to buy? I am feeling very worried about the direction SP is going at this time from what I am reading on this site.
Why are you going to a ticket system?

[mromero]

I have just received the email for the Better and Improved Studio Press and I have signed up as instructed and am not impressed.

The interface is drab and mechanical and not logical. For example the dashboard presents the user with a list of themes and buttons for downloads/ install/ and so on. But clicking on the code snippets however goes to Genesis in general and not snippets specific to the theme you are working on - very confusing.

This will never take the place of interactive Support Forums like this one which we have been using and which will be POOF on Monday in the sense that official support is now on a ticket system and they do not work weekends or holidays.

Mind you, they MAY offer support via the forums, but the primary source for help and support is by weekday ticket.

I've been around the block long enough to see a few successful and loved software / services go through a cycle of hobby / startup / success / corporate / down the tubes (as far as customer care goes) to feel concerned.

My experience has been that after a level of success is reached, corporate takes over and sees better business in devoting resources to fewer, fatter clients. The masses are better addressed with automated support and where this is not enough, a catch the line when you can ticket.

Nothing wrong with that - its how big brands are created, fortunes made and the way the system works.

Another concern that I have is that it appears that independent theme developers are not in the New and Improved Studio Press. The Control Panel says:

"Community Themes are supported by the developers themselves. To receive the support you need, please click on the setup link and you will be taken to the developer’s site."

But, everything is Studio Press Only. There is no other "Developer".

One of our favorite themes Driskill by Bill Erickson has unfortunately decided not to participate in the New And Improved Studio Press Support System and the theme has gone open source.

Finally what I find confusing is the warning that on Monday, these forums will be Read Only. While in the New and Improved MyStudioPress there is a link to Forums that you have to sign up all over again:

"These forums are for general discussion on WordPress, CSS and design and site feedback. Official support for StudioPress themes is offered exclusively through the My StudioPress member area. Responses in this forum are not guaranteed."

And the NEW FORUMS are but a sorry ghost of their former self:

----
General Discussion

Introduce yourself and talk about all things WordPress.

Design Tips and Tricks

Share code snippets and get help with CSS questions.

Showcase and Feedback

Show off your website or blog and see what others think.

StudioPress Plugins

Discuss plugins developed by the StudioPress team.

Hire a Genesis Developer

Post your project specifics and find someone to help you.
------

I somehow get the feeling of being hung out to dry....

Originally Posted by ngb222

I have never found a better forum and product support then StudioPress. I hate ticket systems and I use almost all of the SP themes and 90% of the time I never have to even leave a comment because I find the answer in this forum. I will be so upset if you go to a ticket system. Also now I have bought almost all the community themes and have clients usign them, and today I went to buy antohter one and I see that section is gone? ( Update I just found the link on the sidebar of the theme page) whew.
What happened and also where can I go find the theme now to buy? I am feeling very worried about the direction SP is going at this time from what I am reading on this site.
Why are you going to a ticket system?

[ngb222]

I too am very disappointed with the new interface. I am not surprised though.
Running a forum like this one is a ton of work. It was the main selling point I used for my clients. The clients I work with loved this forum because it had all the answers, it felt like a community and there is so much great old content on here it is very valuable.
I am glad to see that at least they will be leaving up what has been there as a read only section.
I use some of the answers repeatedly in the forum.
I will start my own files now with the answers I need.
I rarely used the tutorials and videos in StudioPress because they did not offer the answers I needed. Once you are not a beginner with Genesis, the questions you have are more complex or detailed.
I will miss this forum.
I just want to say thank you to all the great moderators who have helped me over the years and Brian who in having this support forum has been like a university for me in learning Genesis and how to use many features of WordPress. I will always be grateful for that.

[NicktheGeek]

Please see this thread for more information on the transition and why it is not the death of the forum system, jsut this specific forums.
http://www.studiopress.com/support/s...d.php?t=123873

I'm closing this thread because it is old and should have been closed well over a year ago. Thanks.